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HARLEY'S SUPER TRT(updated reference labs)

Harley00

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I used to microwave my crystalized test prop. Perhaps not a good idea. That was way back. QFS "Quest for Size" had a blow out sale on test prop, some of which had crystalized.
Nope never done that lol
 

nomorals

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I do cycle all my supplements, i do not run everything forever. Yes i am aware of too much b6, but im also only on low dosage of npp, so keep that in mind.
L tyrosine actually does have an effect on prolactin, as it increases dopamine, and that inhibits prolactin. Basically higher dopamine then less prolactin, there is many studys and research on this.

Again low dose npp, and taking precautions hear so prolactin stays in range, caber is completely over kill in this situation.

Metformin is a possible, but i havent tried it, berbine , every fucking time i try it makes me nauseous... no clue why.

Appreciate your comment, thank you.

I'd love to see these studies, yes Tyrosine is a precursor to dopamine but I'll just paste this for you to read over. tldr is you supplementing tyrosine will have none to little effect on controlling prolactin via dopamine or increasing dopamine. Tyrosine is rate limited and you are probably already getting enough since you eat quite a bit of meat. Then the ones that aren't like L-DOPA are not good to take longterm due to other issues.

Better candidates:

P5P (prolactin control)
Vitamin E (prolactin control)
Uridine/Bromantane/Macuna Purrenes if you want an actual effect on dopamine

L-Tyrosine's mechanism to increase Dopamine levels is by being it's precursor.

L-Phenylalanine > L-Tyrosine > L-DOPA > Dopamine
AAAH > AAAH > AADC
L-Tyrosine can also go through the pathway para-Tyramine > Dopamine or m-Tyrosine > para-Tyramine > Dopamine, but this is a minor metabolic pathway so it's not that important.
Don't use NALT (N-Acetyl-L-Tyrosine, it's bioavailability is) way less than L-Tyrosine. And no it doesn't have different pharmacology, it just goes through the Deacetylase enzyme to lose it's N-Acetyl group to become L-Tyrosine. I'm assuming it's because since the Acetyl group makes it highly water-soluble making it go throug the kidneys, so most of it gets pissed out.
AAAH is the enzyme that adds a Hydroxide group (Phenylalanine/Tyrosine hydroxylase).

BH4, Iron, and Niacin are cofactors for L-Phenylalanine > L-Tyrosine > L-DOPA.
AADC is the enzyme that removes the Carboxyl group (DOPA decarboxylase).

Vitamin B6 (P5P) is a cofactor for L-DOPA > Dopamine.
These are "rate-limiting enzymes" that make up how much gets converted, so upregulating the enzymes will convert more. Bromantane and Cordyceps upregulate AAAH.

Make sure you have enough cofactors too.

L-Tyrosine is almost useless on its own, enzymes and cofactors will increase Dopamine levels more efficiently. You're probably getting enough from meat anyway. I think the placebo is just crazy with this supplement, people even claim NALT worked a lot better for them than L-Tyrosine even though it's bioavailability is so little. Or maybe some people have good genes? Who knows...


it works similar to a drug, where you'll a rush of dopamine, and then a depletion. Also heard it will replenish dopamine stores that are lacking, without the crash/depletion
Amphetamines are what you mean by an increase then depletion. People recommend L-Tyrosine after using an amphetamine to replenish Dopamine levels so less side effects from it.

I'm mostly interested in its potential ability to rebuild damaged dopamine receptors
Try a Uridine source for that like Citicoline or Uridine Monophosphate.
 
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fmrdh

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Don't get me wrong here, it looks like you put a ton of effort into designing this protocol

I am of the opinion that less is more in the sense that one shouldn't have to take X supplement/drug in order to combat the sides of something else while considering yourself "off" or on TRT.

If you are trying to retain/gain, diet and training are the biggest keys here.

IMO It would be prudent to have your diet and training dialed in before starting down this road which by the sounds of it, may not be possible for you right now.
 

Harley00

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I'd love to see these studies, yes Tyrosine is a precursor to dopamine but I'll just paste this for you to read over. tldr is you supplementing tyrosine will have none to little effect on controlling prolactin via dopamine or increasing dopamine. Tyrosine is rate limited and you are probably already getting enough since you eat quite a bit of meat. Then the ones that aren't like L-DOPA are not good to take longterm due to other issues.

Better candidates:

P5P (prolactin control)
Vitamin E (prolactin control)
Uridine/Bromantane/Macuna Purrenes if you want an actual effect on dopamine

L-Tyrosine's mechanism to increase Dopamine levels is by being it's precursor.


AAAH is the enzyme that adds a Hydroxide group (Phenylalanine/Tyrosine hydroxylase).


AADC is the enzyme that removes the Carboxyl group (DOPA decarboxylase).


These are "rate-limiting enzymes" that make up how much gets converted, so upregulating the enzymes will convert more. Bromantane and Cordyceps upregulate AAAH.

Make sure you have enough cofactors too.

L-Tyrosine is almost useless on its own, enzymes and cofactors will increase Dopamine levels more efficiently. You're probably getting enough from meat anyway. I think the placebo is just crazy with this supplement, people even claim NALT worked a lot better for them than L-Tyrosine even though it's bioavailability is so little. Or maybe some people have good genes? Who knows...


Amphetamines are what you mean by an increase then depletion. People recommend L-Tyrosine after using an amphetamine to replenish Dopamine levels so less side effects from it.


Try a Uridine source for that like Citicoline or Uridine Monophosphate.

First of all this was supposed to be , my super trt, protocol for fooling the doctors and running more gear lol, but definitely appreciated your replys, you definitely always have great comments, i enjoy them, but your makimg me work hear. Lol.

We are talking Low dosage npp hear, virtually no need to run anything, but under the circumstances, this is about fooling your docs not necessarily rasing suspicious activity lol so tanked prolactin wont work hear ither, so lets keep in mind were not running alot of npp.

So yes , there can most definitely be different things to run, and most definitely thank you for sharing, keep in mind theres plenty of side effects with some of those you mentioned as well, and finding the right supplement for the individual is always important. As far as p5p i knew that was a better form for this action, as iv mentioned it last year nurmourous times, but i always found it hard to get being a traveler, its always been something id have to order, even gnc dosn't have it hear, so b6 is easier to get as shoppers /walmart carriers it. So i just found diffrent ways, now i have just started using iherb and they ship to my work, so i may bring some in, but at the time i was instruction to use l tyrosine, due to being hyperthyroidism and when your hypo your dompamine levels become depleted due to stress.

This is easier copied from nbci.
L-Tyrosine is the precursor of the catecholamines; alterations in the availability of L-tyrosine to the brain can influence the synthesis of both dopamine and norepinephrine in experimental animals and probably in humans. In animals, stress increases the release of catecholamines, which can result in the depletion of their levels, an effect that can be corrected by giving L-tyrosine. L-Tyrosine does not seem to enhance the release of catecholamines when neurons are firing at their basal rates, but it does when firing rates are increased by stress( note this part) This is the basis for studying the effect of L-tyrosine on the stress response of humans.

So , possibly due to the stress and being hypothyroidism, l tyrosine may be a better choice? I do how ever have some evidence, of my 2 labs i did when i was hypo, you can clearly see my thyroid was faked, and i had low levels of prolactin, this was the time i took 1000mg of l tyrosine for a few months. It looks as if through the stress mechanism it had done the job?

PicsArt_06-30-11.09.00.jpgPicsArt_06-30-11.08.30.jpg

Now will look at no l tyrosine.
PicsArt_06-30-11.08.05.jpg

Again were lookin at a small scale , and only took 1000mg, too me this looks like it does effect prolactin in a small way. Without going overboard , through some stress signaling?

*Also note that prolactin is a tricky bugger because it can give false highs, well not so much false, but sex or jerking off before labs can throw that off rather quickly, i would say through the rasie in Serotonin? Since Serotonin inhibits dompamine, so lower dompamine means in increse in prolactin? @nomorals Lol were definitely getting why to into this... well i always do anyway, it appears we share the same passion for figuring shit out lol.

Theres definitely 10 or 15 things a guy can try for everything, and each one of those things react differently for the individual depending on there current health , this is why this is difficult and also why i suggested my super trt , is because i wanted guys to also see my supplements.

And i always say do bloods, no what supplements your taking and take whats needed, thats why you may always see me asking guys what your taking for supplements, as i know this already.

Thnx a bunch, im currently sweating my ass off in out house shitter in the oilfield writing on cjm lol...

Definitely continue to give me your suggestions, this is great to have these complex discussions sometimes.

Thank you for you suggestions.
 

Harley00

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Don't get me wrong here, it looks like you put a ton of effort into designing this protocol

I am of the opinion that less is more in the sense that one shouldn't have to take X supplement/drug in order to combat the sides of something else while considering yourself "off" or on TRT.

If you are trying to retain/gain, diet and training are the biggest keys here.

IMO It would be prudent to have your diet and training dialed in before starting down this road which by the sounds of it, may not be possible for you right now.
100% agree thank you for your comment appreciated it sir.
Most of these supplements guys already take, and are very good for you, personally i find an issue with all of our food sources now as our soil is not once as it was, the nutritional value is not there, so i belive that we may need to supplement more, of coures this is based on my opinion, i have heard that thrown around alot though, how our soil is not as good, do to world pollution etc so it makes sense.

And this supplement list is more for guy currently on trt, as we dont get a break from doin pct, so its more aimed at manipulating our bodys to accept the natural changes higher testosterone does,and how those levels effect our markers, if this makes sense. Lol

Blood pressure, your right fix the underlying issue you fix blood pressure., 7/10 guys ,would you say have blood pressure issues? So im definitely heavy on that due to an adrenal insufficienty issue i have, so for me that causes an increse on its own, that im slowly working on, thats another story. I also believe thats a big part of trt , cortisol/trt are a major issues for lots, again another story. Too be fair most dont even no it, they assume other issues.

But your right, trt you shouldn't need these, but most hear are on them. Due to not fixing the underlying issue.

Your definitely right though i 400% agree its about diet and getting the right food and eating for your hormones etc. And i most definitely have started to harness the art of it, its the most important part .

Thank you sir, appreciate your opinions for sure thank you.
 
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nomorals

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First of all this was supposed to be , my super trt, protocol for fooling the doctors and running more gear lol, but definitely appreciated your replys, you definitely always have great comments, i enjoy them, but your makimg me work hear. Lol.

We are talking Low dosage npp hear, virtually no need to run anything, but under the circumstances, this is about fooling your docs not necessarily rasing suspicious activity lol so tanked prolactin wont work hear ither, so lets keep in mind were not running alot of npp.

So yes , there can most definitely be different things to run, and most definitely thank you for sharing, keep in mind theres plenty of side effects with some of those you mentioned as well, and finding the right supplement for the individual is always important. As far as p5p i knew that was a better form for this action, as iv mentioned it last year nurmourous times, but i always found it hard to get being a traveler, its always been something id have to order, even gnc dosn't have it hear, so b6 is easier to get as shoppers /walmart carriers it. So i just found diffrent ways, now i have just started using iherb and they ship to my work, so i may bring some in, but at the time i was instruction to use l tyrosine, due to being hyperthyroidism and when your hypo your dompamine levels become depleted due to stress.

This is easier copied from nbci.
L-Tyrosine is the precursor of the catecholamines; alterations in the availability of L-tyrosine to the brain can influence the synthesis of both dopamine and norepinephrine in experimental animals and probably in humans. In animals, stress increases the release of catecholamines, which can result in the depletion of their levels, an effect that can be corrected by giving L-tyrosine. L-Tyrosine does not seem to enhance the release of catecholamines when neurons are firing at their basal rates, but it does when firing rates are increased by stress( note this part) This is the basis for studying the effect of L-tyrosine on the stress response of humans.

So , possibly due to the stress and being hypothyroidism, l tyrosine may be a better choice? I do how ever have some evidence, of my 2 labs i did when i was hypo, you can clearly see my thyroid was faked, and i had low levels of prolactin, this was the time i took 1000mg of l tyrosine for a few months. It looks as if through the stress mechanism it had done the job?

View attachment 21441View attachment 21442

Now will look at no l tyrosine.
View attachment 21443

Again were lookin at a small scale , and only took 1000mg, too me this looks like it does effect prolactin in a small way. Without going overboard , through some stress signaling?

*Also note that prolactin is a tricky bugger because it can give false highs, well not so much false, but sex or jerking off before labs can throw that off rather quickly, i would say through the rasie in Serotonin? Since Serotonin inhibits dompamine, so lower dompamine means in increse in prolactin? @nomorals Lol were definitely getting why to into this... well i always do anyway, it appears we share the same passion for figuring shit out lol.

Theres definitely 10 or 15 things a guy can try for everything, and each one of those things react differently for the individual depending on there current health , this is why this is difficult and also why i suggested my super trt , is because i wanted guys to also see my supplements.

And i always say do bloods, no what supplements your taking and take whats needed, thats why you may always see me asking guys what your taking for supplements, as i know this already.

Thnx a bunch, im currently sweating my ass off in out house shitter in the oilfield writing on cjm lol...

Definitely continue to give me your suggestions, this is great to have these complex discussions sometimes.

Thank you for you suggestions.

Correct Tyrosine would only have an effect on say a stress induced individual, the rate limiting on Tyrosine compared to say velvet bean/l-dopa makes it safer/healthier but it has a much much more minimal effect.

Don't get me wrong I like to take tyrosine too I feel like it does do something.

L-Dopa long term or one of the strong dopamine agonists come with their own serious sides long term.
 

bebeav

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Woah pretty intense and interesting protocol!
I'm gonna follow for sure.

Supose to do something similar as soon as i get my last blood done, but it will be withMast P instead of Primo until i get some. Keeping short ester cause last blood i raised a flag with to much free test because of Mast E.

You wrote :

''to allow the estrogen in behind my eyes to periodically build back up so i do not have vision issues, at this dosage i do not believe it to be a factor, but i will set a saftey in place. ''

Could you explain further please? I
 

Harley00

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Woah pretty intense and interesting protocol!
I'm gonna follow for sure.

Supose to do something similar as soon as i get my last blood done, but it will be withMast P instead of Primo until i get some. Keeping short ester cause last blood i raised a flag with to much free test because of Mast E.

You wrote :

''to allow the estrogen in behind my eyes to periodically build back up so i do not have vision issues, at this dosage i do not believe it to be a factor, but i will set a saftey in place. ''

Could you explain further please? I
Sure ill give my spin on it, so clomid basically blocks the estrogen receptors in the brain in the eye area, theres better descriptions of this all over the net, but basically, over time if someones not making enough estrogen to overcome the strength of the clomid, or novaldex your taking, you can run out of estrogen there and it can give you vision problems.

Women dont have as much of an issue, because they make more estrogen then men, but it is common with women because they take higher amounts of clomid for breast cancer etc

Men however do not make as much estrogen as women, so especially when we take things already, to inhibit estrogen...or particularly dht because its dht that basically helps balance out e2, higher dht less e2 like a scale. But what im suggesting is that since we already have less estrogen, then add a medication on top that lowers estrogen more in certain areas of the body, then its something to watch for.

When guys pct they typically only take clomid few week , im talking about a men taking clomid at low dosages for 6 to 7 months. But at low dosages so x amount of estrogen vs the strength of a drug .

Clomid is supposed to help signaling in the hypothalamus, so im investigating this my self, its suggested that clomid will act on increasing cortisol, so thats my purpose hear for me due to my issues, but clomid is also suppose to help increase shbg, so im also trying to not tank that with the primo.

This is my take, my opinion, others may have different things to say.

The list of supplements i took was my choice, for my issues, but its nice for guys to see what supplements someone takes, because blood work can be effected by your supplements.
 

bebeav

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Thx man, i'll have to do some research on my side to better learn the relation between Clomid, E2 and vision.

A lot of stuff to be learn from your experience to come!
 

Harley00

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Woah pretty intense and interesting protocol!
I'm gonna follow for sure.

Supose to do something similar as soon as i get my last blood done, but it will be withMast P instead of Primo until i get some. Keeping short ester cause last blood i raised a flag with to much free test because of Mast E.

You wrote :

''to allow the estrogen in behind my eyes to periodically build back up so i do not have vision issues, at this dosage i do not believe it to be a factor, but i will set a saftey in place. ''

Could you explain further please? I
I did think about using mast p, because of the short ester effects, but i was really drawn to primo, and wanted to see if i could make it work In between bloodwork., of course ill have to continuously drop it for a week and a half, but you would still have to drop mast p for that as well to be sure, so i think it will be intresting for sure.

I don't necessarily need primo out of my system i just need the free to drop, enough to be in range.
 

bebeav

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I did think about using mast p, because of the short ester effects, but i was really drawn to primo, and wanted to see if i could make it work In between bloodwork., of course ill have to continuously drop it for a week and a half, but you would still have to drop mast p for that as well to be sure, so i think it will be intresting for sure.

I don't necessarily need primo out of my system i just need the free to drop, enough to be in range.

Yeah exactly, the only thing that really matter is to have free T dropping cause docs don't seem to like this. Last time shereduced my weekly dosage.
I'm curious ifa week and half will be enough, last time 4 weeks later and i still had low shbg leading totoo much free test.

Maybe @Goldenrod could relate about Primo and the relation on his SHBG and Free Test?
 

Harley00

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Yeah exactly, the only thing that really matter is to have free T dropping cause docs don't seem to like this. Last time shereduced my weekly dosage.
I'm curious ifa week and half will be enough, last time 4 weeks later and i still had low shbg leading totoo much free test.

Maybe @Goldenrod could relate about Primo and the relation on his SHBG and Free Test?

How much test were you on at the time, if you had low shbg, then your free test would be used up faster, meaning in 1.5 weeks it would have dropped faster then if your shbg were higher, higher shbg means you have less free testosterone, but more bound, meaning mkre to use for another day..

Id guess your testosterone dosage was likely still too high?

Im also not 100% sure the half life of masteron, pretty sire primo is around 10 days? .

Thats my take, im gonna be finding out thats for sure. And ill document it.
 

Goldenrod

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Yeah exactly, the only thing that really matter is to have free T dropping cause docs don't seem to like this. Last time shereduced my weekly dosage.
I'm curious ifa week and half will be enough, last time 4 weeks later and i still had low shbg leading totoo much free test.

Maybe @Goldenrod could relate about Primo and the relation on his SHBG and Free Test?
No, I doubt it will and it didn't with me with private blood work. It took over a month for my free test to come back into normal range. I think its great to think outside the box and try something new but I wouldn't do so without a few dry runs if my script was on the line.

@TRTDiesel wrote, "TRT(250) + 400 primo and quit it a full 2 weeks before my blood work and my test came in pretty much where it always does but my free test was 3 times over the range."

His scenario is very similar to mine and I was on a lower dose of Primo but over an extended period of time (6 months @150 mg per week). My total test was in the middle to high range of normal, SHBG was a few points below the acceptable range and my free test was off the charts. This wasn't one experiment - I had the same results three times.
 

bebeav

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How much test were you on at the time, if you had low shbg, then your free test would be used up faster, meaning in 1.5 weeks it would have dropped faster then if your shbg were higher, higher shbg means you have less free testosterone, but more bound, meaning mkre to use for another day..

Id guess your testosterone dosage was likely still too high?

Im also not 100% sure the half life of masteron, pretty sire primo is around 10 days? .

Thats my take, im gonna be finding out thats for sure. And ill document it.
Not that high at all, only 140mg Test and 100mg Mast, 4 weeks later and i was in troubl;e hahaha.
Just got my bloods result back today and my Total Test was 19nmol and she said my SHBG and Free test was back in range. She didn't ask more bloods since she sent me to a new endo, i'm gonna meet him friday and i hope he'll be more open than her.

Half life should be 7-10 day like most enanthate (Mast and Primo). So i would assume that it need 21-28 days to be cleared from our body, so it could easely impact ou free test until a month later i think.

1625532466008.png


@Goldenrod So it would be a good idea also to let the Primo clear our blood before having bloods done to be sure, thx for helping us!
 

Harley00

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Not that high at all, only 140mg Test and 100mg Mast, 4 weeks later and i was in troubl;e hahaha.
Just got my bloods result back today and my Total Test was 19nmol and she said my SHBG and Free test was back in range. She didn't ask more bloods since she sent me to a new endo, i'm gonna meet him friday and i hope he'll be more open than her.

Half life should be 7-10 day like most enanthate (Mast and Primo). So i would assume that it need 21-28 days to be cleared from our body, so it could easely impact ou free test until a month later i think.

View attachment 21458


@Goldenrod So it would be a good idea also to let the Primo clear our blood before having bloods done to be sure, thx for helping us!
140mg a week should give you different results based on pin day and amount pinned.

Your free test can ride just over the 700 mark on 140mg of test a week given the day it was injected.

Yes you right about 10 days for primo and mast , thats what i was suggesting up top, so 1.3 1.4 weeks is the goal line, or the line im going to try and push so 10 to 14 days.

My self i dont belive these graphs 100% so many things can be manipulated, its a good guide for sure though.

I will be altering injection frequency though and keep a 100% step by step of what iv done leading up to blood work.

If i fail then ill try and talk my way out and retry a different method next time, but im going to try very hard to manipulate it, and i too have been on 140mg a week , but currently everyday injections,with this protocol but if i were on M/W/F then tueday/ Thursday /and Saturday would be my peak days. Making monday the lowest if i dont inject etc, what i found is do bloods on 4th day of injection of say 0.23ml of 200mg/ml pharma that would equal (46mg of test minus the ester weight of course) but for me that gave me 19nmol on the 4th day typically. With a very low free test off 400 , if i tested it on the second day id get 36nmol and free test to 700 ish.

Ither way im definitely going through with this and will be the outmost honest i can.
 

Goldenrod

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Not that high at all, only 140mg Test and 100mg Mast, 4 weeks later and i was in troubl;e hahaha.
Just got my bloods result back today and my Total Test was 19nmol and she said my SHBG and Free test was back in range. She didn't ask more bloods since she sent me to a new endo, i'm gonna meet him friday and i hope he'll be more open than her.

Half life should be 7-10 day like most enanthate (Mast and Primo). So i would assume that it need 21-28 days to be cleared from our body, so it could easely impact ou free test until a month later i think.

View attachment 21458


@Goldenrod So it would be a good idea also to let the Primo clear our blood before having bloods done to be sure, thx for helping us!
Yes, I would be waiting a lot longer than a week or two to be certain with Primo. One of the reasons I love Primo is over an extended period, even low doses increases your free test. I would just take the guess work out of it, run your protocol and get your own private blood tests done so you know for certain. It might be costly but a lot less costly than running a test with your prescribing clinic/doc and losing your script.
 

Harley00

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I think its important, to show some history hear, i want guys to follow along and have the stroy, this way we all can see how this goes, im not afriad to fail, if i fail then others will no what not to do.

I just thought it would be important to see more current labs, to see the complete picture, if anyone wants to see a current lab iv not posted from this year feel free to ask and if i have it ill post it , im saving some inflammatory markers etc for another thread , so im more focused on what the clinic is going to see and how to manipulate the clinic if it can be done between labs.

So ill add some current labs hear and prob may add them in the maine thread, but there will be some from feb and may, to show what im allowed to get away with, in feb i had 34nmol TT was a day i tested the 2nd day after injection, also including some other markers, like shbg , to help identify what is bound at this time vs whats bound at a later date for records.

As of the moment she knows i do 3x a week, so theres a bit if manipulating can be done depending on day i do test. She knows this as well.

Im also showing some high progesterone markers and dhea, i belive primo will help lower progesterone, by raising dht, as i also belive the prostate markers will hopefully drop more with more dht. This is something outside the thread im investigating with primo and adrenal insufficienty which ill do a full primo exposed thread in the furture, i hope to. Again this may not change untill a consistant run.

So here guys hopefully this will be exciting to follow and a bit nerve wracking for me lol im very excited to accomplish this or to fail i guess. Opens the door for others to experiment, as well as learn some possible ways to get out of high markers lol.

Ill also include my most recent cbc blood count so we can see the effects of a higher dosage of test and primo , i havent added npp in yet. Waiting on first labs which wont be too much longer aboit 1 month i think.

Ill also include my full most recent lipid panel.
Not gonna be hiding things guys, if i fail i fail.
PicsArt_07-06-02.10.24.jpgPicsArt_07-06-02.09.54.jpgPicsArt_07-06-02.09.16.jpgPicsArt_07-06-02.07.19.jpgPicsArt_07-06-02.06.30.jpg

PicsArt_07-06-02.11.14.jpg

Feb markers, obviously i have more.but wanted to show what i got away with last time easily.



PicsArt_07-06-02.15.03.jpgPicsArt_07-06-02.12.35.jpgPicsArt_07-06-02.04.47.jpg
 
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