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The truth about intermittent fasting

Nimbus_cl0ud

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Whatever is sustainable and helps you work towards achieving your goals. If IM/Keto helps you create that deficit when cutting then prop to you, if it helps you create a surplus and you're trying to gain again more props to you. Meal timing and all this other small negligible stuff might factor in at around 5% at most towards the end result, at the end of the day its incredibly simple. With that being said if possible a mixed diet that's micro-nutrient dense is probably the best way to go however if you do find something that works for you and is Sustainable then congratulations and folks you dont need 300 grams of protein if you only weigh 200 lbs, maybe half of that or 1g:1lb of bodyweight if you want to play it safe.
 

king56

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not if you want to get huge n massive!! Good for clearing toxins out if needed!
Agree to disagree on clearing out “toxins” my friend... lots of literature shows otherwise.
Never a fan of fasting or starvation diets... they put your body in s catabolic state and depriving your body of nutrients to clear out the popular “toxins” misnomer is detrimental.
Whatever works, but most athletes and lifters wouldn’t go near fasting. Not all...most
 

king56

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I’m not going to bore anyone with scientific data, but fasting has very little research supporting it.

The “toxins” you are removing...exactly what toxins from a balanced diet does your body need removing,,,,rarely is this critical point elaborated on, rather the focus is in weight loss.

It’s not due to toxin removal, it’s due to putting your body into starvation mode. And if people that that’s optimal for performance or long term help...well... can’t help you,
 

Mnemonic

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No place in an athletic lifestyle IMO.
So improving blood pressure, insulin resistance, digestion, risk of heart disease, inflammation, increasing natural HGH and muscle preservation are not parts of an athletic lifestyle eh? Never mind the benefits unrelated to physical athleticism, such as cognitive function and prevention of chronic mental illness such as Alzheimers.

You realize that continual scheduled eating directly contributes to insulin resistance, inflammation and leads directly to heart disease, diabetes and essentially every other chronic illness?

The only application where IF might be a complication is elite level bodybuilding competition where you simply cannot stomach the amount of food in the eating window. But nobody's holding a gun up to your head telling you to fast for 23 hours.

If IF doesn't work for you, disregard it and do what works for you. There's no sense bashing something you don't practice or believe in.
While manfreakyca was wrong stating IF is for clearing out toxins, stating that IF doesn't have a place in fitness/athletes is simply delusional.
 

KetoMuscles

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I’m not going to bore anyone with scientific data, but fasting has very little research supporting it.

The “toxins” you are removing...exactly what toxins from a balanced diet does your body need removing,,,,rarely is this critical point elaborated on, rather the focus is in weight loss.

It’s not due to toxin removal, it’s due to putting your body into starvation mode. And if people that that’s optimal for performance or long term help...well... can’t help you,
This makes me sad.
This is another example of anti-science. Intermittent fasting, time restricted feeding, or even extended fasts are not putting your body into "starvation mode". I agree that fasting isn't a form of detox. But there are extremely complex biological responses to eating and not eating. Autophagy, mitophagy hormone activations, gene expression etc etc etc.
There is a boat load of science that supports fasting. The only science that doesn't support it would most likely be funded by the food industry. Cause guess what. Not eating doesn't pay. As far as the BB community goes there is absolutely a place for fasting. Granted, maybe during a bulk it isn't optimal. But if you're on a 24/7 365 bulk you aren't in it for the long haul.
There is a guy (one of my favourite people I'll never meet) Dr Peter Attia. If he says it's true I believe him. (And he most likely will never say it) Not because it's proven true but because everything else is proven less true. True science.
Anyways, if you are interested in expanding your views on things look him up. He specializes in longevity. Not just living longer but living younger for longer.
 

king56

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You'd be surprised at how many pro MMA fighters fast. GSP is one that highly recommends it. I would have a migraine if I didnt eat every couple hrs. But I know a few guys that fast weeks before grappling tournaments.
You might be surprised at what I know about pro mma fighters lol.
Gentlemen, if you want to subscribe to fasting, Bosu balls, p90x, have at er. :)
 

king56

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So improving blood pressure, insulin resistance, digestion, risk of heart disease, inflammation, increasing natural HGH and muscle preservation are not parts of an athletic lifestyle eh? Never mind the benefits unrelated to physical athleticism, such as cognitive function and prevention of chronic mental illness such as Alzheimers.

You realize that continual scheduled eating directly contributes to insulin resistance, inflammation and leads directly to heart disease, diabetes and essentially every other chronic illness?

The only application where IF might be a complication is elite level bodybuilding competition where you simply cannot stomach the amount of food in the eating window. But nobody's holding a gun up to your head telling you to fast for 23 hours.

If IF doesn't work for you, disregard it and do what works for you. There's no sense bashing something you don't practice or believe in.
While manfreakyca was wrong stating IF is for clearing out toxins, stating that IF doesn't have a place in fitness/athletes is simply delusional.
You feel fasting prevents Alzheimer’s , then carry on.

As far as @manfreakyca and I go way back, he knows I meant it respectfully.
And if you are calling me delusional, I am not the one that feels fasting can reduce heart disease and cure Alzheimer’s. If you feel what you have said is correct, carry on with your fast, whatever works for you
 

king56

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Now In your defence...before I’m too harsh about Alzheimer’s and cognitive function... for the sake of intelligent discussion ...if your information regarding Alzheimer’s is based on the South Korean (I believe?) study that linked fasting to improvements in cognitive behaviour and Alzheimer symptoms by intermittent fasting ...fair.

I have heard this argument before and will acknowledge the study, but respectfully ask you to look closer at the study itself.

This study has long been used to support the notion that fasting improves cognitive function and reduces Alzheimer effects.
This is promising... but you are aware this study that many people draw this conclusion from is based on only two control groups of 10...... RATS.
Not humans...rats.
Nobody wants to go back and forth on study data but be aware when making claims if this common study is your support it is based on only 20 rats.
I’m checking out ...
Look we could argue all day, if you are in a fasting camp, a cross fit camp, whatever. Do what you want ..
just do your homework and if you conclude you think it is something to try to for it
 

Mnemonic

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You feel fasting prevents Alzheimer’s , then carry on.

As far as @manfreakyca and I go way back, he knows I meant it respectfully.
And if you are calling me delusional, I am not the one that feels fasting can reduce heart disease and cure Alzheimer’s. If you feel what you have said is correct, carry on with your fast, whatever works for you
I did not say cure Alzheimer, as we cannot cure it yet once established. but indirectly, I would say a strong/leading preventative in development of the chronic illness.
I honestly don't understand how you can sit there and still believe that IF does not aid in the improvement and correction of heart disease through the direct improvement of insulin resistance.
I'll expand below.

Now In your defence...before I’m too harsh about Alzheimer’s and cognitive function... for the sake of intelligent discussion ...if your information regarding Alzheimer’s is based on the South Korean (I believe?) study that linked fasting to improvements in cognitive behaviour and Alzheimer symptoms by intermittent fasting ...fair.

I have heard this argument before and will acknowledge the study, but respectfully ask you to look closer at the study itself.

This study has long been used to support the notion that fasting improves cognitive function and reduces Alzheimer effects.
This is promising... but you are aware this study that many people draw this conclusion from is based on only two control groups of 10...... RATS.
Not humans...rats.
Nobody wants to go back and forth on study data but be aware when making claims if this common study is your support it is based on only 20 rats.
I’m checking out ...
Look we could argue all day, if you are in a fasting camp, a cross fit camp, whatever. Do what you want ..
just do your homework and if you conclude you think it is something to try to for it
I do have access and have read the two controlled 10 group rat study, and honestly it does have great data, albeit unnecessary to prove my statements.
By comparing two isolated groups of bio-identical rats, they concluded that:

1) Alzheimers reduced bone mineral density in the spine and femur, intermittent fasting reduced that.
2) Abdominal fat mass reduced in IF group (Why is abdominal relevant? Insulin resistance and fatty liver)
3) IF decreased food intake without changing energy expenditure (caloric/nutrient efficiency, improved insulin resistance & glucose oxidation)
4) IF increased fat oxidation as a fuel source compared to the increasing glucose oxidation in the Alzheimer's group.
5) IF restored insulin resistance in the fasting state and decreased serum glucose level. As a result, oral glucose was administered and the IF group increased insulin secretion for fuel oxidation.
6) Alzheimers deteriorated short and spatial memory function, IF prevented it.
7) Cortisol was elevated by Alzheimers, IF decreases it.
8) IF improved dyslipidemia and liver damage index (dyslipidemia is the abnormal amount of lipids in the blood)(aka the beginning of heart disease).
9) IF improved low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and serum triglyceride levels, meanwhile alzheimers damages them.

So right out the gate, I picked out 9 positive scientifically proven benefits of IF pertaining to cognitive function, deterioration and energy metabolism in a study based off of 20 rats. Useless right? on rats? Rubbish.

Why do we use rats? 95% of all lab animals are rodents. convenience, price, maintenance, adaptation to new environments, quick reproduction, short lifespan. Allowing us to see long term studies in several generations of inbred bio-identical rats, in a relatively short period of time. Rats are used as models because their genetic, biological and behavioral characteristics closely resemble those of humans.
Scientists can even breed genetically-altered transgenic mice that carry genes similar to those that carry human diseases.

Currently rats are used as models for nearly everything in medical literature, if not indefinitely, at least deemed safe first before human studies. To neglect data on Alzheimers with data based on rats, one also must neglect existing literature on Hypertension, Diabetes, Cataracts, Obesity, Seizures, Respiratory problems, Deafness, Parkinsons, Cystic Fibrosis, HIV, AIDs, Heart disease, Muscular dystrophy and spinal cord injuries.

You go to the doctor for medicines for treating various illnesses, all of which are initially or currently tested on rodents.
To say that data on rats is trivial is just ignorant, I don't see you volunteering to have amyloids of Alzheimer's disease infused into your hippocampus for scientific research on degenerative brain disease.

That is my stance on that study and the efficacy of rats as medical trials.


How Intermittent Fasting prevents Alzheimer's disease

As for the mechanism on how Alzheimers develops? It's relatively simple.
Alzheimer's and Dementia are essentially the brain being starved of fuel over an extended period of time.
Glucose is the primary fuel source of the brain, but there are certain factors that can prevent the absorption of glucose.

This specific case has to do with the blood brain barrier and the insulin connection.
Insulin allows glucose to be absorbed in cells, brain and muscle.
You know what insulin resistance is.

Despite how much insulin is being pumped out by the pancreas, the brain is not utilizing the insulin. This further worsens the condition by signalling to the pancreas to produce even more insulin because there isn't enough for the brain to absorb fuel.
As a result, the brain starts to develop a protein fibrous tissue known as an amyloid.
People with amyloids & Alzheimers are proven to have a low glucose metabolism.
A symptom of this is craving sweets, because the brain is not getting enough glucose due to insulin resistance.
(Ironic that long term diabetics typically develop memory/cognitive issues and eventually Alzheimers/Dementia).

Every time you eat, you spike insulin.
You know how to reduce insulin right? Exercise, reduce carbs, less meals, less meal frequency. Intermittent Fasting.
Therefore Intermittent fasting indirectly improves our chances at avoiding and preventing cognitive & memory impairment, Alzheimers and Dementia.
This is further proven by the development of a new product, Intranasal Insulin. This is a nasal spray insulin that connects to nerve fibers in the Olfactory Bulb, bypassing the blood brain barrier and going directly to the brain. This new nasal spray insulin has shown major improvements in memory. There's lots of literature and studies on this product pertaining to memory and alzheimers if you're curious.

Minor to moderate memory decline can be reversed and improved. The Hippocampus is the part of the brain responsible for motivation, emotion, learning and memory. The Hippocampus is one of the only areas in the brain where Neurogenesis can occur, which is the development of new nerve cells. Intermittent fasting is the leading cause of increased BDNF (Brain-Derived Neurotrophic Factor), which strengthens brain signaling and synapses. Intermittent fasting also stimulates the production of stem cells, which can be utilized in the development of new brain tissue.


How Intermittent Fasting prevents Heart disease

What is heart disease?
Generally refers to conditions that involve narrowed or blocked blood vessels that can lead to a heart attack, chest pain (angina) or stroke.
Other heart conditions, such as those that affect your heart's muscle, valves or rhythm, are also considered forms of heart disease.

LDL is a lipoprotein that transports cholesterol. The body needs cholesterol to rebuild cells. Whenever you damage your cells, such as gym, LDL brings cholesterol to the cell. The cholesterol is removed from the LDL to repair the cells and the LDL then returns to the Liver to be recycled (normal situation). HDL brings the cholesterol from your cell or arteries back to the Liver, very important to clear bad cholesterol (small dense).

Ultimately what happens is an impaired digestive system compromises the gut bacteria/immune barrier. the immune cells start to kill gut bacteria which releases part of the bacterial membrane known as endotoxin. endotoxin then gets into your blood stream and binds to LDL. Any time you have inflammation (continual scheduled eating of refined carbs & sugars), you increase your LDL production. Endotoxins are very damaging to the system and can eventually cause sepsis and death. The body has a response mechanism of soaking up the endotoxin cholesterols so it doesn't damage your tissue and organs.

The problem is when the Endotoxins bind to the LDL, they use the cholesterol receptor. As the LDL returns to the Liver for recycling, it can no longer transport cholesterol because the endotoxin is taking up the receptor already. So the body has no choice but to continually have these LDL proteins with endotoxins circulating in our blood stream.
Endotoxins are a signal for your immune cells to attack and remove the bacteria. But since it's cholesterol, the immune cells cannot kill it. So the immune cells now secrete pro-inflammatory cytokines, which recruit more, which eventually forms what's known as a plaque. Now the small LDL with the endotoxins has a bunch of immune cells attached to it, so it's now a small dense particle and it's stuck in your circulation.
Eventually the plaque ruptures on the damaged arterial lining and forms a blood clot, limiting or blocking flow entirely, resulting in stroke and/or death. This process is commonly referred to as Atherosclerosis.

Interesting, but what does that have to do with Insulin or Intermittent Fasting?

IF limits many risk factors for the development and occurrence of cardiovascular diseases.
By affecting the biochemical transformations of lipids, it decreases body mass and has a positive influence on lipid profiles by reducing the concentration of total cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL.
IF inhibits the development of atherosclerotic plaque by reducing the concentration of inflammatory markers.
IF diet alters the levels of aidpokines (+adiponectin, -leptin, -resistin) which inhibits the adhesion of endotoxin cholesterol cells to vascular cells, further reducing the formation of plaque and limiting the collection and migration of cells to the arterial membrane.
Since IF causes an increase in BDNF (explained above under alzheimers prevention section), it lowers the systolic and diastolic blood pressure by activating the parasympathetic system. BDNF causes acetylcholine to be released by the vagus nerve to reduce the frequency of heart contractions.
IF has been documented in obese and diabetics to improve glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity.
IF limits cardiac hypertrophy.
IF reduces stress and inflammation in the body.

So in conclusion, heart disease is caused by obvious factors such as:
Blood pressure, cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, exercise and stress.
Every single one of these problems can be prevented and/or corrected by intermittently fasting, thus preventing heart disease/atherosclerosis/cardiovascular disease and even Alzheimer's disease.





Fasting & Alzheimer's Disease sources:

20 rat Alzheimer's study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29307281

Connection of brain insulin resistance in Alzheimer's patients associated with IGF-1 resistance, IRS-1 dysregulation and cognitive decline
https://www.jci.org/articles/view/59903#SEC2

Brain Insulin Resistance and Deficiency as Therapeutic targets in Alzheimer's Disease.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3349985/

Brain Insulin Resistance identified as possible new link between Alzheimer's Disease, Diabetes
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160407221709.htm

How does brain insulin resistance develop in Alzheimer's Disease
https://www.alzheimersanddementia.com/article/S1552-5260(13)02918-X/fulltext

Midlife Insulin Resistance affects brain Function (connection to increased risk of Alzheimer's with Type 2 Diabetic Patients)
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/848902

Insulin in the Brain: Its pathophysiological implications for states related with central insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes and alzheimer's disease.
http://europepmc.org/articles/pmc4191295

Sugar for the brain: the role of glucose in physiological and pathological brain function
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900881/


Fasting & Heart Disease sources:

Intermittent Fasting in Cardiovascular Disorders - An Overview
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6471315/

Intermittent Fasting and Human Metabolic Health
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516560/

Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3946160/

Increased gut microbiota diversity after fasting
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4452615/

Metabolic Endotoxemia Initiates Obesity and Insulin Resistance
https://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/56/7/1761?ijkey=799d05c524ff63a421e4ff717e9aea8ab0fd74f6&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Intermittent fasting confers protection in CNS autoimmunity by altering the gut microbiota
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6460288/

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king56

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As I said, I could paste the same pages of various studies showing no direct benefit.
You can google search studies all day, I can do the same.

If you feel intermittent fasting works for you, by all means go for it.

I was merely pointing out it is rarely (not never) used for in bodybuilding or athletics. If you feel it is right for you, by all means.
I will admit , as we can both list dozens of studies nobody but us will read, as I’m sure you can admit, science is fairly divided on this issue.

I’m from the camp that fasting/deprivation/starvation is not optimal.
You feel otherwise, by all means, do what you feel works or what is working for you
 

king56

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The copy and paste data is fine, but your final paragraph where you use your own words is flawed.

“So in conclusion, heart disease is caused by obvious factors such as:
Blood pressure, cholesterol, obesity, diabetes, exercise and stress.
Every single one of these problems can be prevented and/or corrected by intermittently fasting, thus preventing heart disease/atherosclerosis/cardiovascular disease and even Alzheimer's disease.”

Careful with the word PREVENT. Even the studies you have found will not go this far. To argue there are studies that suggest it can be beneficial in those areas is one thing...
Stated that it will PREVENT heart disease, atherosclerosis, cardiovascular disease and Alzheimer’s disease ...surely even if you feel it can be beneficial , you can’t beleive your last paragraph.

If you do I have some HMB, glutamine, and chromium pic to sell you. Wonder supplements ;)

Regardless agree to disagree sir.
 

Mnemonic

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I actually wrote it out, minus the point for point data from the first study.
The mechanisms of heart disease were written while listening from a video pertaining to Dr. Rhonda Patrick, so that was just "dumbed" down into my own poor grammar and words, only the specific terms were used. The actual process of heart disease is a bit more detailed.

You're right in that the studies do not state the word "prevent" or "cure", but every single point in the studies that was researched was a black and white improvement in essentially every relatable health marker, even cognitive function pertaining to memory, reaction time and problem solving.

But I guess at the end of the day, if you're gonna eat like shit, your body is gonna treat you like shit.
I am just going to whatever "extremes" I have to do to maintain health and longevity while using anabolics.

Agree to disagree.
 

TS1

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IF works - hands down, yes, it works.

Is it conducive to getting to 220, 240, 260+? Not really.

But it does have a time and place, think about it, as cavemen (or in the caveman era), ppl of the village woke up likey at sunrise, the alphas would leave to hunt prey to be brought back and consumed by the 'village' with the beta types prepping hte village for daily chores, arrival of the slayed animal, etc - all of this was done fasted.

The slayed animal would be brought back and consumed around say between 11am and 1pm, the meal would be high fat, high protein, with nuts, berries and other random shit they would find nearby (they wouldnt have much carbs), then before dark say 6pm to 7pm they would consume the leftovers - again high fats & high proteins. They essentially ate 2x / day - noon-ish & approx 6 to 8hrs later for dinner.

Have you ever NOT seen a 140lb shredded caveman?

This took me 5 years and was doing IF for the majority of this time;
 
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